Author Topic: CPC ประจำเดือน กรกฎาคม 2554 อ.พญ.นฤชา จิรกาลวสาน  (Read 53828 times)

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KGB

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http://www.nature.com/modpathol/journal/v19/n1/full/3800504a.html
อ่านเรื่องวิธีพิสูจน์ความเป็น benign, clonal diseases, originate from uterine myoma ได้
เป็นสาเหตุให้เรียกโรคนี้ว่าบีนาย และมีคำว่าเมแทสแตไทซิ่ง แต่ไม่ใช่เมทาสตาสิสของไลโอไมโอซาร์โคม่า และไม่เหมือน ไพรมารี่ไลโอไมโอมาโตสิส

เทคนิค
Immunohistochemistry
X-inactivation for clonality
Telomere length by FISH
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 01:04:00 PM by คนไกลบ้าน »

KGB

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http://err.ersjournals.com/content/20/119/056.full
A case report of a woman previously diagnosed with LAM from histological section of lung nodule, but lately review and further investigation leading to new diagnosis of BML.

KGB

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ไปเรียนเชิญแพทย์ปอดแถวฟิลาเดลเฟียมาร่วมดิสคัส ดันปรากฎว่าเป็นเจ้าของเคสเมื่อสิบกว่าปีก่อน จึงมิอาจมาเผยตัวตามจรรยาบรรณซีพีซีได้ (สมัย อาจารย์พี่บอยยังเป็นเรสิเด๊นท์สอง พี่ท่านนั้นเป็นเด๊นท์สาม คิดเอาว่าเก่าขนาดไหน และน่าสนใจขนาดไหน ถึงต้องถล่มกรุเอาออกมาโชว์

ยังมีประเด็นน่าสนใจที่สามารถร่วมดิสคัสต่อจนวันจริง อย่าเชื่อผม อาจารย์ดีเค หรือดิสคัสแซ๊นต์อื่น หรือ อาจารย์ชุษณา ที่กำลังไปคิดมุขมาหลอกล่ออยู่ จนกว่าจะได้พิจารณาด้วยตนเองแล้วอ่านหนังสือหรือหลักฐาน จนเห็นประจักษ์และเชื่อได้จริง จนเป็นความรู้ของเรานะครับ กาลามสูตร และ โยนิโสมนสิการ

darth kitty

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เข้ามาปั่นเพิ่ม เพราะเห็นกระทู้ไม่เดิน
ครับ อย่างที่ อ คนไกลบ้านบอก ว่า ยังไม่จบ
ผมให้ข้อมูลเพิ่มอีก
CD ที่ write มาให้ผม มีข้อมูล film ดังนี้
CT นี้ เป็นของปี 2003
CXR ล่าสุด เป็นปี 2010

CXR เยอะขึ้น แต่ไม่มากเทียบกับเวลา 7 ปี
ปอดแตกอีกต่างหาก
ใส่ ETT ด้วย
ซ้ำๆหลายครั้ง

ถึงตอนนี้ เปลี่ยนใจหรือยังครับ

แล้วก็ dead หรือเปล่าไม่ทราบ
แต่ถ้า dead จะได้ tissue จากไหน มาเฉลย
เพราะ อิสลาม ไม่ให้แน่ๆ แม้แต่ necropsy

darth kitty

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ไปเรียนเชิญแพทย์ปอดแถวฟิลาเดลเฟียมาร่วมดิสคัส ดันปรากฎว่าเป็นเจ้าของเคสเมื่อสิบกว่าปีก่อน จึงมิอาจมาเผยตัวตามจรรยาบรรณซีพีซีได้ (สมัย อาจารย์พี่บอยยังเป็นเรสิเด๊นท์สอง พี่ท่านนั้นเป็นเด๊นท์สาม คิดเอาว่าเก่าขนาดไหน และน่าสนใจขนาดไหน ถึงต้องถล่มกรุเอาออกมาโชว์

ยังมีประเด็นน่าสนใจที่สามารถร่วมดิสคัสต่อจนวันจริง อย่าเชื่อผม อาจารย์ดีเค หรือดิสคัสแซ๊นต์อื่น หรือ อาจารย์ชุษณา ที่กำลังไปคิดมุขมาหลอกล่ออยู่ จนกว่าจะได้พิจารณาด้วยตนเองแล้วอ่านหนังสือหรือหลักฐาน จนเห็นประจักษ์และเชื่อได้จริง จนเป็นความรู้ของเรานะครับ กาลามสูตร และ โยนิโสมนสิการ
ย้อนเวลากลับไปปี 2003
ถ้าผมเจอ case นี้  ;)
ผมตอบเลยครับ

จอดสนิท  :P

น่าสนใจว่า case นี้ ถูก Dx ได้ตั้งแต่เมื่อไหร่
คงต้องยกเครดิตให้คน Dx คนแรก
เพราะตอนนั้น คงไม่มีประวัติสวยหรูให้แบบนี้

KGB

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This disease with smooth muscle cell tumour in the lung and uterus has been first reported in American Journal of Pathology in 1939. (Although the pulmonary leiomyoma was reported from 1881) Since then, there are many case reports from Japan and other countries. (This may be the reason why Aj DK exposed to this patient in Japan, didn't you?)
I don't know that this disease is well-known or should be known in pulmonary fellowship training or even Pathology residency training as I am a small internist with my fund of knowledge.

From the clinical stand point, our resident 'Piyapan'  has 'superb'  working differential diagnoses.  :)
I think this case was diagnosed as soft tissue tumour, low grade leiomyosarcoma metastasis from uterus or multifocal leiomyoma (too many focal though!)  without awareness of uterus from clinical setting and pathology at that time if the pathologist and clinician do not aware of this disease 'Benign (but) metastatizing leiomyoma' entity.

(I do not aware this possibility of this disease as the clinical picture does not suggest metastasis disease (as Piyapan said, it is very limited to the lungs and I do not aware this disease if the history of intermittent symptoms partially corresponded with menstruation does not given and I still need to search through the internet resources for many days)

In this case, probably, the OB-GYN pathologist will be the best one who awares of this disease setting, I guess. So I will guess, again, that the concealed diagnostician should be Aj. Surang, or the others from Pathology section in OB-GYN department. :)


From the confusing and contradicted name of the disease, I am not sure that any of the residents will have time to read and understand that from the paper attached. So I would like to give some explaination from the molecular view.

At the time of the case firstly reported, we only have the routine pathologic examination. No immunohistochemisty techniques available at least for clinical use. So the pathology in the lung should comprised of benign-looking spindle cells or fibroid like.
There is uterine leiomyoma or uterine myoma or fibroids coexisting with the lesions in the lungs. There is no proven experiment that the tissue are the same origins or just a co-incidence. The concept of immuno markers and molecular markers for proving the origins of the tumor is feasible now. Until recently in the paper I showed, they confirmed that the origin of the benign-looking smooth muscle cell in the uterus and the lungs are the same origins and the clonal diseases. (Same X-inactivation pattern and same immuno-markers). About the telomere length, there is a theory for epithelial tumor that the telomere length shortening is one of the event occurred before it can be metastasized. For soft tissue sarcoma, there is no such confident. In this paper, the length of the telomere by FISH method is the same in both tumors site in the case investigated. We can not know the important of this finding.

To summarize, we know that it is benign looking from routine tissue diagnosis. We know that it is the same origin with the tumor in the lungs and the uteus. It seems to be hematogenous as the tumors in the lung is randomly distributed and have no perilymphatic or aerotracheal predilection. But the migration of the tissue and the pathogenesis remains to be elucidated.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 07:13:45 AM by คนไกลบ้าน »

KGB

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The other point I would like to urge everyone attention is that although clinical diagnosis or many radiological diagnosis are pattern recognition as previous CPC case discussion in this webboard said, the pathogenesis of the pattern that we recognised may aid our memorize or differential diagnosis understanding.
For example, the egg-shell pattern calcification in silicosis (in this case might be the severe form, PMF) that is not occurred commonly in other setting, but silicosis and coal workers lung). The question is why? Some one might know that uterine leiomyoma can be calcified too and if there is calcification in this case, will anyone change the diagnosis? Many of us will argue that the clinical discussion is not suggested to silicosis. But that is the different level of evidence. I said that if we have equivocal information, how can we make the intellectual guess of the diagnosis from the pattern recognition? memorize them? statistical thing? We can be better than that.

Calcification is classified into two types: dystrophic calcifications and metastatising calcification (with abnormal serum calcium)
Calcification in this case is dystrophic calcifications which occur in dead or degenerative tissue.
In silicosis that have massive necrosis in PMF case or in silicosis nodule, calcification can occur frequently, in tumor like fibroids, it have to be enlarged and overgrowth the supply. the healing process in silicosis wrap the lymph node with collagen and then surrounded with egg shell calcification while fibroid calcification or other tumor that normally dead from the middle like lymphoma will have central calcification with low tendency than silicosis counterpart because tumour tend to be a growing mass not a dead tissue.

This is my hypothesis and no proven experiments as far as I know, but it stimulates and help your memorization about the pattern recognition. Hope it will urge all students to learn and use your all potential and knowledge actively!

Have fun in medicine! ;D
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 10:45:53 PM by คนไกลบ้าน »

chusana

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Dear Aj DK and especially Aj KGB:
After a very long reading of your quotations, I'm not surprised why you are among the best clinicians and probably researchers ever ever!  I wonder you might pretend to give incorrect answers at the first few trials. And then after adding some hints, you are among the best to find out it??!!??  You must suggest all students, residents, fellows, and/or staffs the best way to search out it from the search engines.
I think malignancy especially soft-tissue tumor must be determined principally based on clinical behavior (aggressive behavior, patient shortly die without specific treatment), and then histologic and molecular techniques.
In addition, I agree with Aj KGB that benign chorionic villi and endometrium can migrate to and colonize distant organs especially the lungs; it's not necessary to be malignant process.
I follow the most important quotation of the world:
"I believe in intuition and inspiration. Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution."
Chusana

KGB

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I don't think I know the best strategy to search information out of the search engines.
The search engine retrieval is quite messy and some patience is needed until you find your relevant answers.
More medical specific database is easier to use like pubmed or any other medical databases.
The drawback of using medical specific database is the limited searching strategy and keywords that can be used.
In this case, the search engine may be more free to use if you have little ideas about what you are going to search.

The keys of successful is selecting the right keywords. Changing and modifying the keywords until you get the best results. I think we can scan and select the topic-relevant search result not more than 20 or less. We have to read skimly and scaning through the result page and assess whether it is worth to read. There is no guarantee that is algorhithm will end with the satisfied answer (bad algorhithm: can be looped infinitely and get nothing)

Why, because medical terminology are not well created and standardized. The attempt to make this easier is the active research field called ontology. It try to collect and reclassify the term into more manageable themes and retrievable. Anyway, the success of this use still needs the good knowledge of the users.

So what I can suggest now is have and continuously making good medical knowledge background for using in select the relevant information from the resulted website.




Search with the the keywords and clinical questions carefully.


Be patient, you will get all the thrash or the first hit that you get will be the right answer!


Modify the keywords slightly. Need some knowledge  of medical terms and imagination in this step.

Enjoy reading lots of information!


If you didn't get a good match, try another round again and again. You will learn more every time you search.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 07:37:05 AM by คนไกลบ้าน »

KGB

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Is wiki or uptodate or Harrison good enough?

I think there are many students and even the staff including me using wiki as the start point for knowledge searching.
Some one prefer a commercial medical database such as uptodate and some one prefer a standard textbook like Harrison's.

The question is are they good enough for evidence-based medicine.

The short answer is no. The longer answer is yes and no.

The explaination is as following.

They are not systematically review articles and databases.

Wiki might be the broadest, but it is easily misleading and incomplete.
Uptodate is updated at the impressive rate but this is still non-systematic review and subjected to author-biased.
Standard textbook is too slow to adapt and usually there is no update until the next version that might be next 4 or 5 years.



The best evidence should be the critical appraisal and systematic reviewed(formal as metaanalysis or informal) and then judge that the patients condition is fitted to the evidence or the patients group or not.

Life is not that easy. There are no such that evidence for every diseases and conditions and sometimes we don't have the ideas about the confronting patient, so other evidence and knowledge from the above sources can be the good start to familiar with the conditions suspected but you have to use it cautiously and try to confirm that before use with the clinical cases!

chusana

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I agree partly with Aj KGB. RCTs and systematic review may be impossible for some rare diseases, and even they exist sometimes are prone to be publication bias and several kinds of bias. In addition, the authors or reviewers try to play with research methodology especially statistical significance or no; I wonder this will impact clinical significance or not despite statistic significance?
I like Aj KGB regarding the knowledge of basic science especially in the field of pathogenesis and pathophysiology of all know and unknown diseases; I think they can answer all questions either in clinical practice and basic sciences which in the future they need RCTs and/or systematic reanalysis to support.
Updated treatment of all diseases needs searching the Pubmed or others Medical search engines since all textbooks are too outdated.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
Chusana

darth kitty

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เอาภาษาไทยครับ  :-*
ขี้เกียจแปล
เด๋วเล่นภาษาญี่ปุ่นซะเลย  :(

chusana

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Aj KGB:
Please give a brief summary in Thai krub
Chusana

KGB

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私はタイ語入力することはできません。

KGB

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I like my given name. KGB. It seems like a spy!